Why does pursuing biblical diversity feel so difficult—even in the church? 

In this candid conversation, Pastors Jim Eaton and Rod Hairston, Converge Biblical Diversity Co-Directors, unpack the real reasons people resist the work of cross-cultural unity in the body of Christ — and why it’s still so worth it. They explore how our desire for comfort can conflict with the call of the gospel, and how painful past experiences often create barriers to deeper understanding. However, through personal stories and Biblical wisdom, Jim and Rod remind us that this is more than a social project; it’s a core part of our discipleship as Christians. 

Whether you’ve wrestled with staying silent, stepping out, or just wondering where to begin, this episode offers encouragement to keep going. Because even when it’s hard, this work is holy. 

Transcript

Jim Eaton: Well, I think it would be interesting to have a conversation about why is this intercultural journey so hard? You know, some people think, oh, this’ll be easy. And then you actually start getting into it and it’s difficult. Then other people are like, oh, I would never touch that. I would never wanna enter into that journey. What do you think? Why do you think it might be hard?

Rod Hairston: Man, there’s so many reasons why I think it’s hard, I think the first of which is the discomfort, right? It’s awkward space to live in. It’s awkward space to think about, right? It brings us out of our cultural comfort zones. And most of us are just not really good at opening up to different people, right, understanding people for who they are, for what has shaped them, what’s made them.

Jim: I think that’s right. And, you know, people talk about how it’s difficult to do public speaking. It’s difficult to go into a room, like a chamber event, and go and meet people you haven’t known. And I think this just kind of takes it to another level where you’re now interacting with people whose stories are different. Their background is different. And I think then people tend to sort of withdraw a bit and think, I don’t wanna say something dumb, or I don’t wanna say something insensitive. And I think sometimes people’s default might just be to say, “I think I’ll just kinda stay among the people I’m comfortable with.”

Rod: Yeah. I think it’s true, Jim, that we… We tend to coddle our insecurities, right? So what we don’t know, what we don’t understand, where we feel insecure, or if we feel threatened, right, by another group, another ethnicity. Cultural expression, if we feel threatened, that’s a… That’s a way of feeling insecure. And we like to coddle our insecurities rather than explore beyond them, right? And I think what we see all throughout scripture, especially, we see it more poignantly in the New Testament, this call to go Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria is a call to go beyond our comfort zones, right? It’s a call to go beyond what we’ve always known and what always seemed normal to us.

Jim: Yeah, that’s right. And just think of all the different times Jesus would deliberately take his disciples out of their comfort zone to do the next call of the gospel. Like when they go to the well there in Samaria. And he says to his disciples, “We have to go this way.” And he knows what’s going to happen. But his disciples are very discomforted by this. They’re all about let’s get some food. And what are you doing? And, you know, he’s trying to say, “This is the call of the gospel.”

Rod: Yeah. Yeah.

Jim: And I think often in our context as American Christians, that we are too quick to forget how much the culture influences us. And American culture is really wired for comfort. You know, we’re the high choice, high opportunity culture. People come from other parts of the world. And they’re always amazed at just going through our supermarkets and all the choices, you know? And Americans are so geared toward, I just want to keep moving in any direction that keeps me comfortable. So then when you hear the call of the gospel, when Jesus says, “Take up your cross and follow me,” we tend to kind of somehow spiritualize it, instead of saying, “Maybe that’s a call for me in my neighborhood, or my school, or my workplace.”

Rod: Well, you said it… You said it really well, right? Comfort calls us. But the gospel requires something of us.

Jim: That’s right.

Rod: That really stretches us.

This convenience thing is big. I remember my wife’s grandfather when he was with us, he was 98 years old. And he would say in his very rich Trinidadian accent, “You have every convenience, every convenience.” I used to love to hear him say that. He just marveled, right, to go into a grocery store, or to even just drive down the street in Los Angeles. And he would say, “Everything is well-manicured.” Right, and so, he could see the comfort levels and the levels of convenience that we had. And you’re right, it’s hard to get away from those. But if we are going to be true to the gospel, we have to leave our comfort zones.

Jim: That’s right, yeah. And I think too, if we’re really being candid about this, I think another level at which people sometimes balk at this journey is that there is a lot of pain. And most people, if they’re really honest, have stories of interacting with someone of a different culture. And the result was a lot of personal pain, that they were misunderstood. They were mistreated. They may have had good intentions. And they completely misread the culture, whatever the cues were, or maybe they just came in with some naivety or some ignorance. And so, there are a lot of things in our culture that, honestly, they cause a lot of pain. And I think that there’s… There has to be a place for compassion in coaching people through their pain and giving them the hope that on the other side, as you follow the Spirit, even though you may feel like you’re in the valley of the shadow of death, the Spirit will lead you to greener pastures.

Rod: Well, I think you… I think you hit the nail on the head, Jim. There’s extraordinary pain around this issue. And you and I have talked about my experiences, the experiences of African American people in America, in particular. And it’s not limited to us. There are not very many reasons why you and I should be friends.

Jim: Yeah, yeah.

Rod: Except that the gospel demands it, right, of us. And, of course, we like each other. We’re cool with each other.

Jim: That’s it.

Rod: But I think that pain issue is really, really important. Here’s another reason that comes to mind. Sometimes people feel like they’re going to lose something. Right, if I embrace another person’s culture, embrace their way, if I endorse them as valuable, and valid, and necessary for what this gospel message means and valuable, period, then somehow my way of being is threatened. And we see that in Acts 6 in some ways.

Jim: Yeah, yeah.

Rod: Right?

It just shows up in our human experience. If I open the door to you, then maybe I’m gonna lose something.

Jim: That’s so good. And I think that’s true. And I just think that… I remember being at an event some time ago. And A.R. Bernard was speaking, pastor in New York City. And he talked about the fact that in American culture, we have a Black race card. And we have a white race card. And we each have our cards. And if we go… If a white person goes too far into the Black community, they risk losing their white card among their own peers, and vice versa. And you and I both know we’ve had experiences of pain, of suffering, of loss, because we’re just trying to say, no, we’re not… We’re not trying to be obnoxious or create unnecessary waves. We simply feel the Spirit is calling us to take another step through another door into another cultural place. But sometimes, you lose. You may even lose friends you’ve had, lose acquaintances. Maybe your reputation may suffer. But I just think, again, the call of the gospel to walk with Jesus is worth everything.

Rod: It’s worth it.

Man, I love that you lose your card, right? There’s a game out called “Black Card Revoked.” Right, that if you engage certain people in certain cultures, right? If you don’t know certain things about Black culture, right, then your car gets revoked. Now, I had friends tell me in college, you know, why are you hanging out with all these white people? Right, I just I had a lot of white friends. Right, but the implied is you don’t know who you are.

Jim: That’s it, and I’ve heard the same thing. I heard someone once tell me, “Pastor Jim, you need to figure out who you are.”

Rod:Have tell ’em, like Paul said, “I’m a Hebrew of Hebrews.” I’m a Black… I’m Black as Black can be, right? Culturally, right, I identify with my people and our experience, who God has made us.

Jim: That’s right.

Rod:And his being on this journey with us. But that doesn’t keep me from loving you, caring about people from other… I’m curious about people. I love people.

Jim: Oh yeah, that’s right.

And I think there’s something about being happy in your own skin, in the person God made you to be, your own cultural heritage, and ancestry, and stories that… Be happy in that. Embrace what God has laid out as the story of your life. Like God said to Jeremiah, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. And I appointed you a prophet to the nation.” So I think we can be happy. I once had someone ask me, do you… “Do you hate your own people?” And I’m like, that would never cross my mind. I love my own culture. But I just think that the gospel of Jesus is so beautiful where he calls us to walk with one another among all the varied peoples that God has made. And this really is a sacred, hopeful journey.

Rod: Man, I love that. It’s a sacred, hopeful journey. It’s absolutely possible. This journey of diversity, yeah, it’s hard. Yeah, it’s challenging. But it’s sacred.

Jim: Amen.

Rod: And it’s hopeful.

Jim: Amen.

Rod: And if God is for us, no one can be against us.

Jim: Amen.

Rod: Let’s do it, even though it’s hard.

Jim: Let’s do it.

Rod:Let’s do it.