How does biblical diversity differ from secular DEI? Converge Biblical Diversity Co-Directors Pastors Rod Hairston and Jim Eaton unpack this important distinction, emphasizing that the Gospel is inherently diverse, equitable, and inclusive of all humanity. Through powerful scriptural examples, they illustrate God’s intent for His people to engage in cross-cultural fellowship and justice. Learn how to courageously pursue God’s divine design for diversity, even when it’s uncomfortable, and reflect His heart in today’s world.
Transcript
Rod Hairston: We’ve been having a great time listening to Regional Presidents and other leaders-
Jim Eaton: Yeah.
Rod: Throughout Converge.
Jim: It’s been good.
Rod: Yeah. One of the big questions that seems to keep coming up when we listen to groups is, what is the difference between DEI and biblical diversity? Some are even asking, “Is there a difference?” And I think that’s a good subject force to tackle today.
Jim: It is, it is. I think I would start out by saying it’s a nuanced conversation. I think right now, in our culture, things are so inflamed, and so many people in groups are at opposite ends. And so someone will throw up a zinger of a statement on Threads, or X, or Instagram, wherever your platform is, and think, “Okay, that settles it.” But this is actually a nuanced conversation in the scripture-
Rod: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Which is where we really wanna start. For example, in the Great Commission, when Jesus said in Matthew 28 and in Acts 1, that, “You are to take the gospel out.” He uses cultural terms to say, “This gospel is going to be taken by my people, my disciples, and it will be embedded in the gospel, will be cross-cultural initiative.”
Rod: Yes.
Jim: “It will be a cross-cultural lifestyle to Samaria, to the rest of the earth.” So if there are believers who are saying, “Well, I just don’t wanna have anything to do with anything that’s intercultural or cross-cultural, or having to do with justice or racial reconciliation,” and they lump it under DEI, we wanna make sure we’re saying, “The Bible calls us to a diverse walk, and that is part of our journey. It’s a crucial part of our journey.” So I would start by saying that.
Rod: I think that’s a very helpful beginning. What I hear you saying in summary to that point is that the gospel is diverse-
Jim: Yes.
Rod: Equitable-
Jim: Yes.
Rod: And inclusive.
Jim: Yes.
Rod: It is inclusive of all humanity.
Jim: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Rod: And it levels the playing field, that’s what equity does, right? It levels the playing field so that no one is left out of the story of God’s redemption, His love for us.
Jim: Yes.
Rod: And that diversity means it’s for people from different background stripes and colors, right?
Jim: Yes.
Rod: And I think even people we don’t agree with, right? That the gospel is for them as well, right?
Jim: Yes, yes.
Rod: I think, sometimes, we forget that, that the gospel is for them as well.
Jim: Yes.
Rod: My mind goes to Acts 2, right? The day of Pentecost in the Bible, where we see people from all these different nations, gathering together to hear the gospel. And 3,000 people come to faith in Jesus, that’s diverse.
Jim: Yes.
Rod: That’s equitable.
Jim: Yes.
Rod: That’s inclusive.
Jim: Yes.
Rod: So, where’s this fine line? We got a song in the black community. I gotta remember who sang it. It says, “It’s a thin line-“
Jim: Yeah.
Rod: “Between love and hate,” right? I was like, “Man, what a powerful line, right?
Jim: Yeah, yeah.
Rod: “It’s a thin line.” You said it’s nuanced, talk about that thin line.
Jim: Yeah, I think because, you know, we live in the culture we live in, so people are throwing things around and using, and sometimes packaging concepts under a term. So when we’re talking about a transgender ideology or making everything about LGBTQ, that’s where we would have to be careful and say, “Well, the scripture does call us to be male and female. It does call for marriage to be between a man and a woman. So we love and welcome the opportunity to minister to everyone in our community.”
Rod: Absolutely.
Jim: But we wanna be biblical in saying, “But God calls us to a certain posture and a certain walk.” So when some people think DEI, or I’ve heard it, just diversity initiatives-
Rod: Mm-hmm.
Jim: Always mean that, and sometimes primarily mean that. We want to make the distinction to say, “We are not saying that. We are talking, ‘Here’s where God is.'”
Rod: So we’re saying we’re not promoting that which is immoral.
Jim: Correct.
Rod: But we are promoting that which is loving.
Jim: That’s right.
Rod: And so that even if people are transgender-
Jim: Yes.
Rod: If they are living gay and lesbian lifestyles, that we still love them.
Jim: Absolutely.
Rod: We include them in the sharing of the gospel, right-
Jim: Yes.
Rod: In caring for them.
Jim: Yes.
Rod: Treating them with dignity and humanity.
Jim: Yes.
Rod: And I think sometimes we have leaned so hard in fear, right?
Jim: Yes.
Rod: That somehow, it’s those immoral practices and choices, are gonna show up in our churches, in our homes.
Jim: Yes.
Rod: But that’s not what biblical diversity is about at all.
Jim: No, no, it’s not. And that’s why I’m concerned that we have the time to have the conversation, and make sure it’s a nuanced conversation. Because right now, there is an environment in our country where it’s like, “Oh, we just throw it out. Just don’t even address it. Don’t do anything that has to do with diversity or with inclusion.” And I think the scripture’s very clear that God wants us to move in those directions, and walk with His heart in that direction. I think of a passage in Galatians 2, and it’s a striking example of where God’s heart really is. In Galatians 2, Paul writes, the apostle Paul says, “When Cephas or Peter came to Antioch,” Antioch was the home of the first multicultural church. “Peter comes to Antioch. I, Paul, opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.” This is striking, the two big men, the two apostles, right?
Rod: Yeah, the big dawgs.
Jim: So here’s what Paul says, “For he regularly ate with the Gentiles.” So he was already beginning to move in the direction of divine diversity. He was moving in the Spirit of God, outside of his Jewish circle-
Rod: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jim: To start interacting with Gentile believers, okay? “Before certain men came from James.” So the big chiefs, the big people from the church in Jerusalem now show up, okay? “And so, however, when they came, Peter withdrew and separated himself.” So when the people he knew, who he was mentored by, and had the held in mutual high respect, they show up, he now retracts his biblical posture of diversity and living out the gospel among the Gentiles.
Rod: Yeah, like, he didn’t know them.
Jim: He starts going, “No, no, no, I’m moving off that. I’m gonna take a different direction in my life, and I’m gonna act low, like I really didn’t have equal fellowship.” So that’s what he does, Peter does this, “Because he feared those from the circumcision party.” He submitted to the fear of man rather than the fear of God. So then Paul says, “When I saw,” now watch this, this is amazing. Paul says, “When I saw that they were deviating from the truth of the gospel,” when you pull back and say, “I’m not going to engage with others of different cultures.”
Rod: Mm.
Jim: “Whether it’s through evangelism or whether it’s through fellowship in the body of Christ, you are now walking away from the truth of the gospel,” okay? That’s what Paul says. “I told Peter in front of everyone, ‘If you who are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel Gentiles to live like Jews?'” You’re living in open hypocrisy. And so I would contend that while we do draw some distinctions in DEI, how the world defines it, we still walk firmly in diversity and inclusion, because that is a biblical call and a biblical command.
Rod: Yeah, it’s interesting to me, Jim, that non-believers seem to have more of an understanding that diversity and equity, and inclusion, are good for humanity-
Jim: Yes.
Rod: Than people of faith.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Rod: And so we sort of live in these enclaves, and we see them as sort of us and them, right? And that’s inconsistent with what we’re reading in scripture.
Jim: That’s right, that’s right.
Rod: Yeah. So when I look at the scriptures, I see all sorts of examples of this diversity and equity and inclusion, I thought about the church that was at Antioch in Acts 13. I’ll just read a few verses.
Jim: Yeah.
Rod: “Now, in the church that was at Antioch, there were certain prophets and teachers; Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger.” You know what Niger means?
Jim: Yes, yes.
Rod: “Who was called Niger.”
Jim: Yes.
Rod: He was known for his black skin. He was known as a black man. So there’s Simeon who would be Jewish in all likelihood. I mean, “Simeon called Niger, Barnabas, Lucius of Cyrene,” which is in Northern Africa, right? I was in Morocco recently, and I thought, “Oh man, there’s a beautiful hue to the skin color here, right?” “Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen, who had been brought up with Herod the tetrach, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, ‘Now, set apart to me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.’ Then having fasted and prayed and laid hands on them, they sent them away.” So we have this beautifully diverse-
Jim: Yes.
Rod: Group of leaders, praying together, seeking God about God’s next move. And they were all together, right? In fact, Acts 2 says, “They were all together in one place,” that 100 or so who gathered.
Jim: Yeah, yeah.
Rod: But this picture of diversity and equity and inclusion, it includes that which is right before God. And it includes people who don’t look like, think like, have the same cultural-
Jim: That’s right.
Rod: Experiences that we might have.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Rod: Yeah.
Jim: That’s so good, and such a crucial passage of scripture. By the way, I think it’s fascinating when you look at that context, which starts really in chapter 11.
Rod: Mm-hmm.
Jim: The story of how the church was, basically reaching largely Jewish people and winning them to Christ. But then the persecution breaks out in Jerusalem-
Rod: Yes.
Jim: And spreads around. So certain Gentiles start showing up, and no one’s reaching them, until a handful of Gentile believers start reaching them. Then the move of God starts proliferating in a more diverse way.
Rod: Wow.
Jim: And Barnabas takes note, and he goes, “Let’s go to Tarsus and find Saul, because that’s his call from God.” And the gospel then moves to chapter 13 where they’re commissioned. And I think it’s fascinating how too often we really just want a life of predictability and comfort.
Rod: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And yet, when crises happen, that’s often when God does His greatest move.
Rod: Ooh, ooh, can you say that again?
Jim: I can say, I can. When crises happen, when it’s like the wheels come off the bus, that’s when God is preparing to do His greatest move.
Rod: We don’t like that, Jim.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Rod: We don’t like the messiness of this journey and this process. Because as you said earlier, I think you said it earlier, that, you know, we like simple answers, right?
Jim: Yes.
Rod: We want it cut and dry. Just tell me what it is, what I’m supposed to do, right, to make it simple.
Jim: Make it quick so I can get on with my life.
Rod: So I can get on with my life. But God is a very nuanced.
Jim: Yes.
Rod: And that’s how he seems to deal with us in the human experience. I think if I were gonna answer the question, what’s the difference between biblical diversity and DEI, the very thin line is that biblical diversity has at its core motivation, God’s love for people.
Jim: That’s right.
Rod: And that includes His justice, and His righteousness.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Rod: Diversity that is not motivated by those things. And the scripture often have sort of, let’s sort of sociologically get along. If you’re a business owner, right, if you’re a large corporation, right, it’s let’s not mess with our money, because, you know, we don’t wanna rub customers, right, the wrong way, and have them not buying our products, and using our services.
Jim: Yeah, yeah.
Rod: But the motive of DEI from a biblical perspective-
Jim: That’s right.
Rod: Is the promotion and proliferation of the gospel of Jesus.
Jim: Mm-hmm.
Rod: And so I would argue based on what we’ve seen here in scripture. We cannot turn away from pursuing diversity, upholding equity, right, treating everyone with justice and righteousness, even if their lives and practices don’t align with ours, right, their moral convictions don’t align with ours. I can still treat my neighbor who is my neighbor, right?
Jim: Yes.
Rod: Sometimes my neighbor is somebody who’s not a believer, not even close-
Jim: Yes.
Rod: To being a believer.
Jim: Yes.
Rod: But I can still treat them with dignity.
Jim: Ah, that’s good.
Rod: And kindness-
Jim: That’s good.
Rod: And respect.
Jim: That’s so good. And I think it’s really important to just caution ourselves as believers. It’s so easy to just get on the world’s bandwagon, whichever direction it’s going.
Rod: Mm-hmm.
Jim: And while we don’t want to be on the bandwagon where every lifestyle, every social construct, every social agenda we now embrace, ’cause we have to say, “No, we’re Bible people, we walk with the Spirit of God. So if God says, no, don’t cross that line, we don’t. We hold ourselves here.” Good, that’s good. But be careful you don’t, in your zeal for that, throw the baby out of the bathwater. Don’t just say, “Oh, okay, everything. If I ever hear the term DEI or if I ever hear the term diversity, or if I ever heard the term inclusion, oh, it means all of that.” No, it doesn’t because God’s heart is too rich and full, as you were just saying. He wants us to be people of love, and compassion, and justice, and be willing to walk an often uncomfortable journey where maybe even some of our close friends will say, “Why are you doing this? Why are you making that friendship? Why are you building that relationship?” But if that’s where the Spirit of God is, that’s where we wanna be.
Rod: That’s where we have to be, Jim.
Jim: That’s right.
Rod: Well, let me just throw a bombshell in here.
Jim: Okay.
Rod: So y’all just stay with us, this is gonna be challenging, but you know what DEI has come to mean in the secular world?
Jim: Yes.
Rod: And by those who don’t want it to exist, it has become the new N word-
Jim: Yes.
Rod: In our culture, in society.
Jim: Yes, yes.
Rod: Right, it’s become sort of code for, right, let’s sort of get black people out of these positions and roles. Let’s get brown people out of these positions and roles, and let’s not kowtow, right, to this doctrine of DEI, because we’re not gonna be forced to let the table be just and equal in terms of opportunity for people of black and brown skin.
Jim: I think that’s fair. I think that is a fair critical analysis of what, it’s not everything, but what some of what’s really happening right now on the current of our society. And we have to be very careful as believers to say yes, we don’t hold to some of those extremes. Yes, okay, we do.
Rod: Yes.
Jim: But be careful that sometimes a rapid movement in society is a cloak-
Rod: Yes.
Jim: For a new form of disparaging people God has made in His image.
Rod: It really calls for a new level of discernment, and prayer and leaning into the Holy Spirit. And I would argue a new level of courage-
Jim: Yes.
Rod: For believers. I’ve always believed that as we read the scriptures concerning eschatology, that the last days would demand of us a different level of courage and faith. And I believe that we are in the last days. In fact, Paul’s very clear about his scripture. He’s very clear about it, that we are in the last days, and it demands of us that we be courageous people-
Jim: That’s right.
Rod: Who stand on the scriptures.
Jim: That’s right.
Rod: I believe, Jim, that God celebrates diversity-
Jim: I do too.
Rod: Equity, and inclusion. And we see it in Revelation. If I can just read this last scripture in Revelation 9, many of you’re familiar with it, so humor me, but let’s read it together. “And they sang a new song saying, ‘You are worthy to take the scroll,'” Jesus, worthy to take the scroll, the title deed of the earth. “And to open its seals. For you were slain, and you have redeemed us to God by your blood, out of every tribe and tongue and people and ethnos, nation, that have made us kings and priests to our God. And we shall reign on the earth.”
Jim: Amen.
Rod: When He comes back, Jim, and we reign on the earth with Him, it’s gonna be people from all sorts of walks, ethnicities-
Jim: That’s right.
Rod: Races. It’s not gonna be one color of folks on the earth-
Jim: That’s right.
Rod: In the new heavens and the new earth.
Jim: That’s right.
Rod: There will be diversity.
Jim: Yeah, and let’s walk in that and let’s have the courage to walk in that, because that is the picture of heaven. That is God’s divine intent.
Rod: Yes, yes.
Jim: So in the midst of all the turbulence, don’t just walk where everybody else is walking. Have the courage and the discernment to realize God is preparing his best move.
Rod: Yes.
Jim: And I wanna be very close to his heart right now.
Rod: Yeah, yeah. Can I issue a challenge, maybe a call to action?
Jim: Yes.
Rod: Because these are big themes that can be overwhelming. And the question is often, so what do I do with this, right? What do I do with this? Let me say, first of all, embrace people who you do not know, have not had relationships with, who look differently than you do. Just build relationships with them, right? You don’t have to preach the gospel to them right off the bat, unless the Lord gives you that opportunity. You don’t even have to invite them to church first. In fact, I think sometimes, we shouldn’t invite people to church as a first thing. Build relationships with them, care about them.
Jim: That’s good.
Rod: Be curious about them, right? Imagine, Jim, if the church of the Lord, Jesus Christ, and the earth today, in this country in particular-
Jim: Amen, amen.
Rod: We’re the ones who said, “No, we believe that the God we serve is a God who is for diversity.”
Jim: Amen.
Rod: “That He wants people to be treated with justice and righteousness, and He wants them to be included in His love and what He desires for them.” And they are worthy, worthy, right, to be treated with equity and fairness and kindness. In fact, we see them as capable of doing great things and leading, and God is up to that, right? If we can say that, if we can focus on that, if we can embrace that, I think we could turn our nation around Jim, so that there’s not this us versus them.
Jim: Absolutely.
Rod: But there is the spirit of the living God-
Jim: Amen, amen.
Rod: Preparing us for the return of Jesus.
Jim: Amen, amen. I would just add to that. When you’re walking in your Christian faith, and you encounter all these different ideas, and flaming thoughts, and crazy statements and all that, ask yourself, does this sound like the word? Does it feel like God’s spirit? Does it feel like the spirit of Jesus?
Rod: My dude.
Jim: Because God puts His spirit in us for discernment, and I think too many Christians are too quick to go, “Oh, well, it makes me uncomfortable, therefore it can’t begot from God.” Or, “Oh, it makes me feel good, so I embrace it.” Instead say, “Does this feel like the word of God? And does it feel like the spirit of Jesus?” Walk there, whether people are with you or whether they’re not with you, whether you become popular, whether you become ostracized, just walk there, and God will vindicate you, and the gospel will be advanced through your life.
Rod: My Lord. You know, what he just said, we’ll see you in the next video.
Jim: Amen, and him as well.