In this powerful episode of T Time: Spiritual Conversations For, With and About Women, host Twanna Henderson sits down with Brandi Ann Williams, Director of the African American Church Evangelism Institute (AACEI) at Wheaton College. Together, they unpack why so many churches struggle with evangelism and how pastors can move from outdated methods to cultivating vibrant, conversion-centered communities. Brandi shares practical tools, cultural insight, and transformational stories that offer hope, strategy, and encouragement to leaders eager to make evangelism part of their church’s DNA. Whether you’re a pastor, ministry leader, or everyday believer, this episode reminds us all: evangelism is for everyone — and the work begins with us.

Transcript

Twanna Henderson: Well, welcome to T Time: Spiritual Conversations for With and About Women. I’m your host, Twanna Henderson, and it’s always, I want to remind you to, like this broadcast and definitely share it with someone else in your life. Well, as you know, we have been continuing in our focus this year on the topic of evangelism, and today we have the evangelism princess.

I’m gonna call her. Our guest is Brandi Ann Williams. Brandi, Williams is the director of the African American Church Evangelism Institute, also known as A-A-C-E-I at Wheaton College where she leads initiatives to help pastors cultivate thriving conversion centered congregations. Brandi obtained her master’s degree in theological studies from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and is now obtaining her PhD in organizational leadership at Eastern University.

Brandi has a deep passion for equipping leaders, and she serves as a bridge between generations. Working to connect senior pastors with younger leaders to ensure that the future of the church remains vibrant and mission focused. She is a member of the Gen Z research team at Wheaton’s Graham Center and is passionate about helping ministries navigate cultural shifts and rethink evangelism for emerging generations.

Her commitment to relational evangelism and innovative leadership development makes her a sought after voice in conversations about the future of the church, and in particular the black church, an effective discipleship in an ever changing world. Brandi, welcome back to T Time.

Brandi Williams: Thank you.

Twanna Henderson: So it’s good to see

you.

Have you been?

Brandi Williams: Oh man, all is well. I’m almost at the end of the PhD journey.

Twanna Henderson: Wow.

Brandi Williams: So next time I come back,

Twanna Henderson: Woohoo!

You’ll be Dr. Brandi.

Well, you have definitely been busier than ever. I do not envy that at all, but I’m excited to have you back today as we have been, this year has been dedicated to evangelism and the goal of President Jenkins, who is the president of Converge, has been to build and to rebuild a culture of evangelism.

And I know that you are deep, in the world of evangelism. And so I wanna start by first just asking, from your perspective, why do you think churches really struggle with evangelism and how can they really shift towards, a culture where it becomes a natural part of their identity?

Brandi Williams: Sure. So churches struggle with evangelism because they don’t prioritize evangelism.

Twanna Henderson: We can stop right there.

Brandi Williams: We really could. they have no systems in place. No structures in place. No accountability, no tool that makes it palatable so that evangelism is not this daunting task that seems like it’s just for some people.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: As opposed to all people being capable of just being in relationship with their neighbors, their friends, et cetera.

Naturally sharing their faith. And so again. Lack of tools, lack of structure, lack of accountability, and just overall outdated models.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. And I think it’s interesting that you say that because you know, I think a lot of times we kind of think, when we think evangelism, we think, oh, we just kind of just knock on somebody’s door or whatever the case may be, or we give out some tracks and that is kind of a old model.

I mean, I think so much has changed and obviously that’s not working because I don’t think we’ve really seen the, the results that we need to see as it relates to, evangelism. I know with A-A-C-E-I, you really emphasize helping pastors build what’s called conversion communities. What exactly is that and why is that something that’s essential for church health today?

Brandi Williams: Sure. So I’ll start by saying, statistics that a lot of times pastor are familiar with about the state of the church in America, so, which indicates that 59% of churches, are plateaued or in decline.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: 31% grow via transfer growth.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: Which means that only 10% of churches in America are considered conversion communities.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: Now, the signs of a church that prioritizes evangelism or that we consider a conversion community, is one where you are clear that transformed lives are present within that congregation. And how do you know that? It’s through storytelling. So, you know, back in the day, especially in the past church, you do those testimony services.

Yes, there is something significant to people telling their testimony and understanding, or the congregation being aware of how the Holy Spirit is at work in people’s lives and transforming people’s lives. Second, I’d say, or our research shows even that signs of a conversion community include that 10% of regular attendees are actually new believers.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: And if 10% are new believers, then the stats say 5% the church is growing in, church growing in general by 5% each year. Okay? So 10% are 10% of regular attendees are new believers, but there’s church growth happening annually at least by 5%. Okay.

Twanna Henderson: Okay.

Brandi Williams: Okay. And then the last sign of a conversion community is just that it is prioritized.

Evangelism is one of the top three priorities within a congregation.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. Okay. And that makes sense because a lot of times, you know, I think when we’re counting transfer growth, you know, people who are going from one door to the next church or whatever is not really the same thing, you know, in terms of really looking at growth.

I had a pastor on, on the podcast a few months ago, pastor Zach Bush, I don’t know if you know him or not, and he’s committed to building a culture of evangelism and doing some really great things. And he may have gone through this program, I’m not sure.

Brandi Williams: I think that name sounds familiar.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

And so, you know, I asked him about some of the misconceptions that, that pastors have about evangelism. Since you work so closely with pastors, what would you say are some of the, the biggest misconceptions that pastors have about evangelism and, and how does A.A.C.I. even help to reshape their perspective.

Brandi Williams: Mm-hmm. So one, most times when pastors come into our program, it’s, with a weight that evangelism is all on them.

Twanna Henderson: Hmm.

Brandi Williams: And most of times that’s because they are even solely viewing themselves as evangelists from the pulpit.

Twanna Henderson: Mm.

Brandi Williams: And so what we find is that many times with pastors, they don’t have an active evangelism life outside of their time in the pulpit on Sundays.

Twanna Henderson: Ooh, okay.

Brandi Williams: Okay. So then that means that they need to shift from this individual is all on me. I evangelize when I’m in the pulpit type of mindset. And they need to shift into. How can I embody this?

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: So that I can model it for my key leaders so that my key leaders can model it for congregants and it begins to penetrate the life and the culture of the congregation.

so often, even if a church has an evangelistic being, a lot of times pastors are delegating this to someone else. And so one of the things that we drive home in the program is that if the senior or lead pastor is not at the helm of this, this will not work.

Twanna Henderson: Okay.

Brandi Williams: You can’t give away something that you don’t have yourself.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: You know, and have that expectation, you know, for your leaders or the folks in your congregation. And then I also think that one of the significant points in the program. You know, when I grow up, you used to hear folks, Hey, get ’em to church, or evangelize the loss to any cost. And both of those statements make my skin crawl.

Versus looking for opportunities to listen, to understand, to on ramp people into your church. I think would be a much better approach because then that demonstrates a level of intentionality that you wanna get over and therefore you wanna understand what their needs are or what their stories or their apprehension or their pain points are, so that you can look for opportunities to identify how to bridge them to Christ.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: So

I am really big on this concept of how can I be a bridge towards Christ.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: Because it’s the work of the Holy Spirit that’s going to, oh, if they’re dead and transgressions, there ain’t nothing I can do for them.

Twanna Henderson: Right.

Brandi Williams: That is the work that’s, that’s Bible.

Twanna Henderson: Right.

Brandi Williams: The Holy Spirit will reprove.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. Yeah.

Brandi Williams: You know, and so looking for those moments to bridge the gap towards Christ, and then that’s what we can do on an individual level, but then on a corporate level, a church can be a bridge by having on ramp opportunities and that more so speaks to community engagement.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. And I think that’s true because I think, you know, there’s just so many things I think we have to rethink, you know, in Christian anyway, in in, in the life of a church.

I know a lot of times many pastors are passionate about outreach, but really struggle with execution. What are some practical ways that leaders can really integrate, evangelism into the DNA of of their churches?

Brandi Williams: So they have to teach it. You know, I’ve seen churches be so effective at whatever they preach.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: So if they preach outreach nine times outta 10, they’re doing outreach. If they preach worship nine times outta 10, they have a high worship environment. And I would say it’s the same thing. So it’s the teaching, it’s the preaching. But then also, you know, pastor Jenkins, in fact, he often talks about how he starts every single leadership meeting within his church at First Baptist, asking his key leaders, who have you been talking to?

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: About Christ.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: And, you know, his executive assistant keeps track of that. I’ve heard Pastor Henderson talk about that as well. That, that there’s a system in place, which goes back to what I said earlier. In terms of how are we actually holding one another accountable, cheering each other on?

Are we celebrating folks that are coming into the kingdom? Learning their stories listening.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: I’m a big proponent of collecting data and simply just what that means is just. Do you have it in you to just listen, not presume that you know everything. And, you know, the Church of Old had that very authoritative model and, you know, that just doesn’t work for today, especially, within this generation.

They have questions. They deserve their questions to be answered. they want spaces to wrestle in. And so I think that the greatest advantage. or the greatest opportunity, rather, the churches have is to be a space where people can feel listened to or at least, you know, ask their questions.

Wrestle, faith, right? Having faith that doesn’t mean that there’s absence of doubt or apprehension as we walk through this, life in Christ. And so I just think things like that of just showing the. Authentic nature of what it means to walk with Christ is something this generation was really craving.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. ’cause I think a lot of times we just don’t, I think we kinda underestimate talking to our neighbors or, or mm-hmm. You know, or talking to, you know, somebody who’s sitting next to us and Starbucks or whatever the case may be. I just think a lot of times we don’t think about, oh, you know what, that really was an evangelistic opportunity.

Or that can be an opportunity just to be able to build relationship, first of all, you know, and then from that to really talk about who we are, you know?

Brandi Williams: Mm-hmm.

Twanna Henderson: As, as, as, Christ followers. I know that you work closely with pastors in a cohort model, and I’m sure you’ve seen some transformational stories and heard some stories, that you’ve witnessed from pastors.

What, what, what are some of those stories or what’s, what’s something, a transformational story that you’ve, you’ve witnessed, from maybe some of the pastors that have gone through, A.A.C.E.I?

Brandi Williams: Mm-hmm.

So I think of a pastor in Philadelphia who, when he took the pastoral assignment, he was told that it was a congregation of 200.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: Well, he gets into the role, he quickly finds out that there’s 200 members on the roll.

Twanna Henderson: 25 coming.

Brandi Williams: Right but 40 actually attended.

At that time he comes into the program at the top of 2022. By June 23, he reported 35% increase. Now you got 40 folks coming. You do the math. That’s about 55 folks.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. Yeah.

Brandi Williams: That’s significant. If you have, number one, you added 12 new believers to the body of Christ.

Twanna Henderson: Right.

Brandi Williams: And then nine of those 12 actually began to get active in the life of the church.

Twanna Henderson: Wow. Wow.

Brandi Williams: If you had 40 regular attendees and you got nine more people

Twanna Henderson: mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Brandi Williams: That are involved, it can help carry that call.

Twanna Henderson: That’s huge.

Brandi Williams: That is very significant.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. Yeah.

Brandi Williams: And so, you know, he represents a large number of pastors because sometimes when pastors come into our program, they’re concerned about like, well, my church is only this size, or we don’t have this and that.

It’s not, you don’t need to be a mega church. In fact, I would say the average church that comes to our program, it’s probably somewhere between 100 to 700

Twanna Henderson: mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: congregants. So clearly he was an outlier in that. But still got his team lit up through the system that we offer through the program, and they moved things forward.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, I mean, ’cause the average church in America is like, what, 150 or something like that?

Brandi Williams: Mm-hmm.

Twanna Henderson: That’s, I mean, that’s, and people don’t think about that, but

Brandi Williams: mm-hmm.

Twanna Henderson: Megachurches is not, that’s not the average, you know, size church, at all. But we just hear about those and, you know, it can be, evangelism can really be intimidating, I think, and, to both leaders and congregants.

How does A-A-C-E-I equip pastors to lead in a way that that makes evangelism both approachable and sustainable?

Brandi Williams: Okay, so I’ll say this, and I haven’t emphasized this in our conversation yet, but we equip pastors to foster evangelistic culture change. There has to be a culture change process.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: It is not a wham bam, thank you ma’am.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: It’s not a 1, 2, 3 step. A lot of times people wanna hop on a webinar you know, because our program is an 18 month commitment over two years.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm. Wow.

Brandi Williams: And so we know that culture change, just from an organizational standpoint, takes three to five years minimally.

Twanna Henderson: Wow.

Brandi Williams: So you’re making an investment.

Mm-hmm.

because the, I would venture to say the current culture of any church didn’t just end up that way. It didn’t just happen overnight.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: So you’re having to rethink, you’re having to re-strategize. You might need to let some people go.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: You switch some seats around. Right. All those things.

Because in the program we’re having you to look number one at yourself as the pastor.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: Are you living it out? Do you, maximize your relationships where people, you know, I have a pastor in the program. He went through the program and he’s actually a coach in our program. and he talks about all the time how someone in the he, he hangs in the barbershop and he goes to this barbershop all the time and somebody asks the barber, when was the last time he went to church? And so the pastor sitting there and he’s like, well I would go to church i’m just waiting on the pastor such and such to invite me.

And so that pastor, he’s like. And that’s when it really clicked for him, what it means for he, he himself to embody evangelism with ’cause you know, folks don’t wear collar and robes anymore, but when that proverbial collar or robe comes off

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: Am I sharing, am I inviting, how am I supporting, how am I encouraging others?

And so we, we drive that home. Yeah. And the first nine months of the program. And so it does have to begin with you. And from there, the principles that the pastor is learning, he or she then takes those things and begin to meet monthly with their leaders.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: So

that the information is not just sitting with them.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: It begins to get down into the culture because you’re passing it on. And then those key leaders pass it on to the folks that they oversee.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: And that creates something that’s sustainable because then evangelism becomes who you are and what you do.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: And that’s culture.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s good.

I mean, I, I actually recently had a neighbor that I had been inviting to come and come and, and, you know, and so she said after a certain period of time she was gonna come, and after that time came, I said, okay, that time is up now. Are you coming? And she came, and, and she and her husband came and they accepted Christ.

And it was just amazing because so much happens when we, when we do take, that step to just invite people. And I know that culturally there are a lot of different differences. I know, you know, in your research and your experience at A.A.C.E.I. how has it shaped your understanding of evangelism in the African American context in the church?

Because there are cultural differences.

Brandi Williams: Yeah. So I would say that that, going back to that relational piece

Twanna Henderson: mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: I would say the Church of all has had a very authoritative model. evangelism comes by way of preaching the gospel because in the African American community the church was such a central part of the life of African American communities, whether it came to politics, education, economic, I mean, that’s our history.

That’s what we’re built on, that self-help piece.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: And so the thing is, is that this generation no longer looks at the church with the same level of allegiance or relevance

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: that their mothers and grandmothers did.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: And so because of that, then you have to be able to, I’m not saying compete or keep up or have gimmicks because in fact, in our research, you know, I was one of the focus group researchers for our Gen Z work.

They don’t want gimmicks. They want something that’s real. They want something that’s authentic. Right? I remember one young lady saying, I don’t wanna just hear about the mountaintop. What was the valley like? How did you navigate that?

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: Right? And so if you’re only up there and you’re preaching high moments and you wagging your finger in me

Twanna Henderson: mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: that’s not really giving me, the steps of, of how you got from A to z.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: So I think that’s overall been a missing.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: within the church just that sense of community

Twanna Henderson: mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: And doing life with people.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: Like we know how to church.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: We know how to shout. We know how to, how to have emotional highs.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: but I think also discipleship has been a huge missing.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: So if I’m, I come and I get hyped up on Sunday but I don’t have anything to sustain me throughout the week.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: and so I think discipleship, I, I have noticed has been a missing as well. Just being willing to walk with people. I also think a lot of times leaders can be very, presumptuous,

and assume that they know what people need, what they want.

And versus just actually being in relationship with people, to learn what the needs are.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: And, and being able to meet them that way. So those are some of the things that I, that I’ve noticed.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, it’s an investment. I mean, it takes time to, to, you know, pour into people, to spend time with people. I mean, it takes time.

It really does. And. And a commitment. this is so good. So what’s one simple, but powerful step that pastors, and church leaders, listening today can take to begin shifting their church towards a culture of evangelism?

Brandi Williams: One word or is it two words? On ramp.

Twanna Henderson: We’ll make it two.

Brandi Williams: I can’t say that, enough. And so if the focus be, how can we be visible? How can we create community partnership? How can we engage our community? How can we demonstrate we actually know what’s going on in the world? We don’t have to be right. We in it and not of it, but we, we need to know what’s going on.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: To know how to serve and to do so in very innovative way.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: So

to go back to the, the pastor who has this Latino population in his community, I said, well, have you considered hosting an ESL class?

And so, you know. He said they actually were taking steps to do that. Right. And so then for me, like, can you be, can you consider ESL Christ Church? Like we have these frameworks and these boxes of what we believe church is.

Twanna Henderson: Right. Right.

Brandi Williams: Yeah. but can ESL class, be church? I’ve spoken to one pastor that actually he, I think he starts the program tonight and he first started online, like an online bible study.

He then went on to launch the plan and they meet on Saturdays. I love that. 3:00 PM to 5:00 PM I’m like, man, what city you in? I like my Sundays. Okay. Like, that’s just my, that’s just, I don’t know. I’m one of the older millennials. I don’t know if it’s a, I would love a 3:00 PM to 5:00 PM on a Saturday opportunity for worship.

And then now what they do to develop just more community kind of familial, vibe to it. They have a monthly Sunday outing, so they gather every Saturday, you know, late afternoon, and then they have the monthly Sunday, you know, where everybody brings their family, does some type of group activity. I love that.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: It’s an out, it’s an out of box of, out of the box approach, to ministry and it’s not limiting, church worship. You know, presenting the gospel building community, it is not limiting it to this Sunday morning thing, this heavy programmatic thing, you know, that, that churches do, which a lot of times in churches programs are for the people inside.

Twanna Henderson: Mm.

Brandi Williams: You gotta get outside.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. Yeah.

Brandi Williams: So what is the on ramp opportunity?

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: If there’s summer festivals going on. Why aren’t you having a summer festival too, right?

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: Right. Just things like that, that, that stance that, you know, we, we are here to serve. We want to serve, we want to be engaged with you.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: We’re not just concerned about our church growth and our church membership. We we’re, we want to be a part of the community.

Twanna Henderson: Right.

Brandi Williams: And so i’ll end with this, this is a pastor, he started our program in September. Now he, he was doing this before he came to the program, and I just think it’s brilliant.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: He said there’s a basketball court across the street from his church.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: And during first time, there’s always a group of boys out there playing.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: What he started to do was sending his boys out to play basketball with them during church.

Twanna Henderson: Hmm.

Brandi Williams: Now the agreement is that. If the boys church win, the other guys have to come to church.

Ah, if the guys from the neighborhood win, the boys from church have to go take them to like a lunch at Chicken Shack up the street.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Brandi Williams: As far as I’m concerned, church is still happening.

Twanna Henderson: Right? Yeah.

Brandi Williams: You see what I’m saying? So it’s creating like that, where you’re not so chained to models that throughout time have been handed to us.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brandi Williams: Have become a law or become these, these rules that just have nothing to do with outreach. I’ll say that, to say that the church, church services, but the church the church belongs to Christ. Like, so the church itself is gonna be, it’s gonna be good either way.

Twanna Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Brandi Williams: It has to flourish. It has to succeed because it’s the bride of Christ. But now the people, the people are ours, right? Because great commission. That’s what we’ve assigned to do. And that’s for all of us. That’s not just for some of us. That’s for all of us.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. Yeah. That’s good. That’s good. And you know, there’s work to be done. And I think, and that’s why I’m so glad that we are on this mission of building and rebuilding a culture of evangelism.

Brandi Williams: Mm-hmm.

Twanna Henderson: As someone, as we close as who walks alongside pastors, in this space of evangelism, can you pray for pastors and leaders, to, to really boldly build conversion communities and be intentional about integrating evangelism into the DNA of their churches?

Brandi Williams: Sure.

Twanna Henderson: Thank you.

Brandi Williams: God, I come to you now lifting up every pastor and leader, that will listen to this podcast.

God, I pray that first, that they would commit themselves to prayer, and intercession for the strategies, to really just be good stewards and sons and daughters who are committed to, discipling others to sharing their faith with others. God, I also pray that. They would just keep the main thing, the main thing, that they would do away with gimmicks or this hyper concern around growth.

Knowing that if they show up as just faithful to the main thing that you have given us to do, that you will add the increase, increase is your, and so we thank you. that the church is yours. That it’s not even up to us. We, you allow us to partner with you, to co-labor with you but the results are yours.

And so we thank you for that. And so I just pray that pastors and leaders would just be encouraged, that they would be willing to take risks to be innovative, that they’d be willing to listen, that they’d be willing to reconsider. Maybe scratch some things all together and go back to the drawing board but mindful of the fact that all that they do, is for your glory, and that your glory would be the priority. I pray this in your name, Amen.

Twanna Henderson: Amen. Brandi, thank you so much for joining us. You are always a wealth of knowledge, and I appreciate you so much.

Brandi Williams: Thank you so much.

Twanna Henderson: Well, that’s all the time that we have.

Thank you all for joining us, and to all of our listeners, I’m Twanna Henderson. Until the next time, be blessed of the Lord.