How can we, as believers, engage in conversations about race with grace and truth? Converge Biblical Diversity Co-Directors Pastors Rod Hairston and Jim Eaton gently explore the statement “I’m not a racist,” inviting us to move beyond defensiveness to a place of humble inquiry and collective responsibility. Through scriptural insights, they encourage us to embrace God’s compassionate heart for all people and become agents of healing and reconciliation in our communities.
Transcript
Jim Eaton: All right, so we would like to take on a question or a statement that sometimes we hear, right? You hear people say, “But I’m not a racist.” And it sounds as though that statement then just kind of puts the whole conversation on pause. It’s like everything just kind of stops, as though that really answers a question or moves us forward in a place we should go. And I think it’d be good to have a conversation to challenge that a little from the scripture, that there’s more to the journey than just that.
Rod Hairston: Man, this is a challenging conversation to have because I have heard people make the statement, people from different walks of life, by the way, but it’s almost as if people want to be extricated or extricate themselves from the idea that they could have any inclination toward being racist. And then I wonder what they think a racist is. Is there any way to…
Jim: Yeah, I think there is… I mean, obviously, there are nuances to this, so we kind of have to tease it out a bit, but I think that in the majority community, there’s often a feeling that, all right, I’m just trying to live my life. I’m trying to, you know, submit to the word of God, and I’m active in my local church, and I love the Lord, and I love the gospel, and I want to be wherever God’s Spirit is leading. So now I’m in an environment and I feel like I’m being sort of pigeonholed as a racist. And so my response is, “But I’m not a racist.” Like, okay, let’s just… And so then often, I’ve sensed from some people, like, I just wanna back away from that whole conversation. I really don’t want to get into those topics. I wanna just kind of stay where I’m comfortable. And so I think, you know, scripture speaks to this type of thing, so there’s more involved than just that. So for example, oh, go ahead.
Rod: Well, no, I just wanted to say, we have to come back to the fundamental question, which is does racism exist as a construct, right? Because if it doesn’t exist, then none of us can be. But if it does exist, then any of us is capable of having racist attitudes, practices, as we talked about in another video, sometimes they are not active, right? They can be passive, right? They are, you know, not intended, but perhaps they can still be very real.
Jim: Yeah, that’s true. And then there’s this other aspect that I’ve often found people of color are very, very familiar with this, and some who are in the white community, not so much, and it’s the fact that racism is both personal and it’s systemic. So personal racism, that’s a little more simple to define, you know, do you have animosity in your heart towards someone who’s different than you? Do you resent them, do you hate them? And so often, I’ll hear from white brothers and sisters, “Well, I’m not a racist, I don’t have that.” So that’s why we have to explore the fact that sometimes we’re having a conversation about a dynamic that people of color will experience because of the leftovers of racism, because of systemic racism, that is either ongoing or it’s still prevalent. I think, for example, when we lived in South Africa for a year, and we saw the leftovers of apartheid everywhere. And so when you’d see segregated housing, or, I remember one time I was sitting at a light in my car, and the light turned, it was time for the people could walk, and there was a black man standing right there, and I just kind of waved like that, like, you can cross. He comes running over to me, he says, “What do you want, sir?” And I realized that’s the leftover of racism. He thought, I’m the boss, and his job is to immediately come to what I want. And while we’re not suggesting that is so prevalent in America anymore, the fact that people will experience things doesn’t mean that they’re pointing the finger at every white believer and saying, “You’re racist.” They’re saying there are legacies and leftovers and things going on in our society, and if we can all walk in this, I think the Spirit of God is pleased with that. Does that make sense?
Rod: It makes a lot of sense. And what comes to mind as I’m listening to you is I’m back to, we have to, as believers, accept that racism is a construct in the world and in our nation. And if we just do a little bit of history, right, we have to reckon with the fact that this land was taken from native people, right? There was an all out slaughter, right? So that’s a reality. Then there is the implementation of the slave system, which provided so much of the labor and cotton fields and other kinds of crops and tobacco building, so that went on, then there is the Jim Crow era. So we have to accept the reality.
Jim: And, not to interrupt, and there were racist practices and even laws at times, by other peoples, Chinese Americans, Indian Americans, others
Rod: Yes, absolutely. So that’s a part of the American story, which, by the way, our nation has never apologized for.
Jim: That’s correct.
Rod: Like, there are nations like the Netherlands where they have issued a national apology, but our nation has never, and I think there’s something that God watches when a nation does not repent for its wrongs. And that’s a whole nother conversation.
Jim: But I agree. I agree.
Rod: But I think you’re pointing to something very important that racism exists and we all can be racist. We have the potential to be racist. And I don’t think it’s always villainous, but it’s always painful for the person who’s experiencing it. So what else does racism look like? Because you talked about some of those acts of hatred and so forth. Sometimes it’s just a sense that one person is superior to another. Sometimes it’s one person is more deserving or one person is more capable than another.
Jim: Or another way to put it is sometimes a certain community is sort of, it’s assumed that they’re kind of centered on the conversation, and then the other viewpoints are sort of peripheral.
Rod: Yeah, yeah, I think that’s true. And then you talk about the systemic nature of racism, which oftentimes my white evangelical friends are so not, you know, aware of. It’s kind of back to the justice issue, like that doesn’t exist, but it does exist because there are laws in the land that have historically been designed to promote one race and to demote another race, you see? And so, but when people say, “Jim, I’m not a racist,” I think what people are saying, and you guys can hit us back in the comments, let us know, I think people are saying, “I don’t wanna be associated with that evil. I’m not an evil person.”
Jim: Right.
Rod: Right? Or, yeah, I think that’s what people are saying. I don’t wanna be seen that way.
Jim: I think you’re right. And I think what, and this is through many, many conversations I’ve had with brothers and sisters who look like me, what comes out is, and this is often from people with really true motives and they’re speaking out of a place of humility, they’re saying, “I don’t know why we have to have that conversation because that’s really not, I’m not a racist. I’m not that way.” And one of the scriptures that I like to go to, and I’ve taken people through this one-on-one as well as preached on it, is Nehemiah 1, where Nehemiah learns about the devastation in Jerusalem. Walls are broken down, the gates are burned with fire. It’s his home city. It’s the city of God. And his heart is broken. He’s off there in Babylonia, and he’s serving the king as the cupbearer, but his heart is completely broken by this. And it says in Nehemiah 1, “When I heard these words, I sat down and I wept. I mourned for a number of days, fasting and praying before the God of heaven. And he said, Lord, the God of the heavens, the great and awe-inspiring God who keeps his gracious covenant with those who love him and keep his commands, let your eye be open and your ears be attentive to hear your servant’s prayer,” meaning Nehemiah’s prayer, “That I now pray to you day and night for your servants, the Israelites.” Now, listen to what he says next. “I confess the sins we have committed against you. Both I and my father’s family have sinned.” Now, I was really challenged in my soul the first time I really pondered that because I realized Nehemiah was a man of God. He’s about to be unleashed by the spirit of God in an extraordinary way to facilitate the rebuilding of the walls. So God’s not looking at Nehemiah like, “You are just a terrible sinner.” He’s not looking at him like some of the other individuals in the scripture who greatly offended God. Nehemiah is doing something that I think God is looking for from people. Whatever nation you’re in, wherever you’re the majority, okay, it’s a collective ownership that I want to be a part of the healing of God’s heart. Nehemiah is not saying he knows he’s walking with God, but he’s saying, but my people sinned against you for generations. We’re in exile because for hundreds of years, we offended you, and God, I want to come to you and say I want to own that. And I think that this is the message I often will say to white brothers and sisters, it isn’t that you’re a racist. That’s not the higher calling. The higher calling is to say, did anything happen in our society by people like us in the past? And when we say, yes, it did, can you come to a place where you mourn that, where your heart is deeply touched by this, that you realize people’s lives were disrupted. People went through pain, they lost their town, they lost their homes. They lost their lives. And to say, I did not participate in that, but God, you have a long memory. A day with the Lord is like a thousand years, a thousand years is like a day. So God is looking, he has long wounds, long wounds in his soul and his heart, and he’s looking for people who will stand in the gap, for people who will say, “No, I wasn’t a part of that, but God, I’m owning my collective identity.” And I’m saying, “I want to be used by you to make a change, to make a difference.” Look how God used Nehemiah. And I think a great part of that was because of the humility in his ownership, in his prayer. Often we go Nehemiah and say, “Look at his strategic steps. Look how he surveyed the city. Look how he did the…” Yes, all the strategy is in there, leadership strategy, I get it. But I think it starts with a tender, humble heart of collective ownership to say, “God, I want your heart to be healed, and I want to be used by you to make a difference.”
Rod: Wow, Jim. I’m really overcome by what that would mean, the implications of that mindset. It’s more than saying, “I’m not a racist.” It is saying, “God, I want to be anti-racist.”
Jim: That’s it.
Rod: By my humility. So to admit that these atrocities have been a part of our nation’s foundation and our ongoing story, and to admit that I share in it’s, you know, you know, existence and ongoing destruction, just by not saying anything. So Nehemiah steps in and he says, “No, I got some sins in my family line.” I think it’s the word humility. I can’t be humble and be a racist. I can be anti-racism when I’m very humble.
Jim: That’s right.
Rod: To say, look, what have I contributed to this? And if I have, and whatever I have, maybe it’s ignoring the plight and the pain of others, that’s been my contribution. Maybe our church has cared too little about the vestiges of racism and slavery and oppression of different peoples. Maybe we’ve just said, you know, I don’t have time for that.
Jim: Yeah.
Rod: People need to get over that and just need to move on.
Jim: Or people going, “Point your finger at the true racists out there. Work with them, but I’m off the hook because that’s not me.” But I think, like, you’re exactly right. God’s looking for anti-racist. He’s looking for people who want to heal. You know, like it says there in Ephesians about, you know, before you knew Christ, you were out there stealing and everything. No, no, no. Your life turns around now. It’s not that you don’t steal, it’s now that you work so you can give to those who have need. That’s a high calling. So it’s the same thing. It’s not just that, “Okay, I’m not a racist.” Am I actively submitting myself to the Holy Spirit and asking God to daily create windows of opportunity with other people where I can actively be engaged in the healing to help people with their dignity, to help people with their sense that they have the Imago Dei in their soul. To do that, that’s the spirit that Nehemiah had.
Rod: Yeah, and, you know, Peter had a different spirit and God checked him.
Jim: He did.
Rod: Because Peter wanted to avoid the issue. Peter really wanted to avoid the issue. I can’t help but go to Acts 10 and we can wrap up on this one. You know, when he was in Joppa and he was on the rooftop and he fell asleep right there on the Mediterranean. I’ve been there. It’s so beautiful. Oh, it’s so beautiful. If you don’t go anywhere else in the world, right, go to Israel and sit on the Mediterranean. And if you can have dinner there, all the better. But Peter’s in that very place, same place where Jonah left for Tarshish. Interesting, isn’t it? Same place that Jonah left for Tarshish because he didn’t want to preach the gospel to the people of Nineveh. He didn’t like that. And the Bible says that, “And a voice came to him, ‘Rise, Peter, kill and eat,’ in this blanket of all these, you know, four-footed animals were on. “But Peter said, ‘Not so, Lord, for I’ve never eaten anything common or unclean. And the voice spoke to him again the second time. ‘What God has cleansed, you must not call common.'” He says, you don’t get to separate yourself from this as if somehow you’re above that. And he goes, “This was done three times, and the object was taken up into heaven again. And now, while Peter wondered within himself what this vision which he had seen meant, behold, the men who had been sent from Cornelius had made inquiry for Simon’s House and stood before the gate.” Now, he’s got this gentile knocking at the door, and God says, “And you’re gonna stop your foolishness, Peter, and you’re not gonna be so you don’t deal with these people. That’s not your issue. I’m here to serve the Lord.”
Jim: That’s it.
Rod: And you’re gonna go and answer the door, and you’re gonna preach the gospel. And this Roman soldier and his whole family are going to come to faith in Jesus.
Jim: Powerful.
Rod: Because you let God check you. And he had to humble himself and go with them and be used by God.
Jim: Amen.
Rod: I’m done preaching.
Jim: Amen. I think we’re both done. Thank you for walking with us on this journey.
Rod: But at the core of this, it is humility. And it is softening our hearts to God, to say, “Lord, have I contributed to these atrocities in any way? Have I benefited from them? What role have I played in our church, my family lineage, how have we ignored these issues, this reality of racism?” And rather than be the courageous voice of God, to stand against unrighteousness and injustice, to now stand to stand.
Jim: Amen, amen. That’s good.