Ministry life is not for the faint of heart but is the most rewarding and purpose-filled. So how can we live out a life of ministry in a world that looks down upon biblical truth but is in desperate need of it?

Transcript

Twanna Henderson: Welcome to T Time: Spiritual Conversations For, With and About Women. I’m your host, Twanna Henderson and as always, I want to remind you to take a moment and like this podcast and share it with your friends and other women in your life. Well, I’m so excited about today’s guest, and my new friend. We have as a guest today, Toni Kim. Toni is the director of spiritual care for the National Association of Evangelicals. For 17 years she was a minister at Park Street Church in downtown Boston. She received her BS degree from Yale University and a Master in Christian studies from Regent College in Vancouver. In 2021, she completed Harvard Kennedy School of Government’s public leadership credential with distinction. Tony is an advocate for educational equity, and serves on the Boards of Regent college and Abundant Life, which is a Christian, local Christian Community Development nonprofit. She is also licensed with the conservative congregational Christian conference. Tony, Welcome to T Time.

Toni Kim: Thank you so much.

Twanna Henderson: It is so good to have you.

Toni Kim: It is such an honor to be here and to be called one of your new friends. What a delight.

Twanna Henderson: Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I’m honored to be one, even if it’s just in my head. I want to jump in, because we’ve got some exciting things to talk about today. And you know, and I know that you’re just going to be a blessing to our listeners, I know that you’ve been involved in ministry for many years. How did it all begin for you?

Toni Kim: Yeah, you know, I’ve been really fortunate that God has just opened many doors to ministry for me. So even actually, before I was a Christian, my high school friends elected me to be treasurer of the youth group. Tells you something about the youth group that I didn’t need to be Christian to be treasurer. That was God. God called me and I gave my life to Christ that summer, and then just continued to serve in the youth group. In college, I needed the chance to actually be taught and not just to teach. So I really flourished under the Ministry of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. And when I graduated college, I had the chance to do volunteer staff with InterVarsity for two years. I got married, and then my husband had already been living in Canada at Regent college studying in seminary, and he was working in a Korean Canadian church. And so after I got married, I joined him at Regent college and started studying there and then just started going to youth group and the college and career group. And because ministry was just part of who I am, I just started meeting with the girls, I started teaching bible studies and the church just noticed all the ways that I was volunteering. And they ended up hiring me onto the pastoral staff. I was really surprised, but just grateful. And so my husband and I got to serve together for four years at that church. And then from Vancouver, we moved to Boston for Walter to get his PhD. And I was happily working in academic administration. And then I was asked to apply to be the small groups minister at Park Street Church in downtown Boston. So I was again, surprised. I never envisioned myself being a minister. But I felt that God opened another door. And so I just needed to be obedient to His invitation. And so I ended up serving, as you mentioned, for 17 years in, in downtown Boston, mostly as the Minister of membership. And mostly part time, and I’m working part time at the church gave me the flexibility of also ministering at my daughter’s public school by being involved in educational equity. And that was ministry in and of itself. In August 2017, God called our family to a PCA church in Charlottesville, Virginia. So we moved about a week after that deadly “Unite the Right” rally of August 12 2017. So it was a volatile time to move to that city. But we trust that God’s timing was perfect. And there was a season where I had no formal ministry role. But God had already trained me just to look for open doors of ministry. And so I just served in whatever roles were open to me for four or five years. And then, about a year ago, I started working at the National Association of Evangelicals. And I mean, I’m glad to be able to share this journey, I realize, I’m really fortunate that so many doors have opened for me. I didn’t know that oftentimes, women especially have confronted a lot of closed doors. And I just want any listeners if that’s your case, just know that God sees your pain and your frustration, and your gifting and just continue to be faithful to whatever God puts before you. And know that your labor in the Lord, whether official or unofficial, that your labor in the Lord is never in vain.

Twanna Henderson: Absolutely. And you know, your life, your short life so far has definitely been a life of ministry. And as you mentioned, the National Association of Evangelicals. Converge, of course, is a member of the NAE. But some of our listeners may not know what the NAE is. How would you describe it?

Toni Kim: Yeah, that’s a good question. So the NAE is a network of Christian denominations, organizations, schools, churches and individuals that are committed to being good news people to a world in need of a Savior. Now, let’s be honest, the label Evangelical, it’s a tough one these days, right? Basically, it’s just it’s often used narrowly, to refer to white American evangelicals in a politicized way, or to refer to a political subculture of white American Christianity. But evangelicalism is all about the good news of Jesus. And it is global, and it is multicultural in its scope. So the NAE is part of the world Evangelical Alliance that connects us to brothers and sisters in Christ all around the world, who reflect that picture that we see in Revelation where persons of every nation, tribe, people in language, will be together worshiping the lamb. Now, the NIV is comprised of about 40 different denominations that span various traditions. So we’ve got Baptists and Presbyterians and Pentecostals and Wesleyans, and we have all sorts of Christians who definitely have differences. But we still share that deep conviction that have marked historic evangelicalism. And these are things like a high view of Scripture, the necessity of conversion to Christ, spiritual transformation, and the proclamation of gospel in word and deed.

Twanna Henderson: And, you know, I’m so glad that you, you know, kind of delve into that word, evangelical, because we, it has been, as we hear, very narrowly defined, and a lot of times just because of media and all the things that we hear, we don’t really know what an evangelical is. You know, I read on, I think the website that the NAE’s core conviction is that it’s called to be an influence for good, what exactly does that mean?

Toni Kim: It means that we will band together for the, for common causes for the common good of others. And it needs to be done in a way that not only is good news, but feels like good news, right? Because so often we get we Christians are really committed to truth, but we need to be equally committed to love. And that, you know, it is God’s kindness that leads us to repentance. It’s not God Stern, like, you know, rebuking him. I mean, sometimes he does, that, that is what is needed, but for the most part, it is God’s kindness that leads us to repentance. And so yeah, the NAE really strives to, to say, there are many things that we disagree upon. But the things that we do agree is that this world needs Jesus. And there is, and there’s good news that we can proclaim in word and deed.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, absolutely and I love that influence for good. Let’s really talk about your role as director of spiritual care. That sounds pretty important. What exactly does that role entail?

Toni Kim: I think I’ve got the best job ever. I mean, I think that I just get to see God take care of his people. I create space for people to meet with the living God. So the NAE is not a church. But we really believe that apart from Christ, we can do nothing. And so abiding in Jesus is essential to our lives and it’s the only way that we can bear fruit that will last. And so the goal of my role is to help our staff, board and other constituents abide in Jesus. So on the individual level, I pray for and meet regularly with the NAE staff, as well as some of the board members and other NAE affiliates. And on the organizational level, I help incorporate spiritual care information into all that we do. So one of the things I do is I co lead with my husband, Walter, NAE’s annual retreat for denominational executives and their spouses. And there’s two projects that I’m working on right now that I’m pretty excited about. And one is a joint venture with the Fuller Center for Spiritual Formation. And so we’re starting a year long cohort for national female leaders within the NAE network. So any Fuller information group and it’s a hands on relational way to learn and nurture spiritual practices that equip us to deepen our connection to Christ and His work in the world. And so I’m really excited about providing a space for women who’ve been trailblazers in ministry, to come and to be poured into and to focus on their relationship with the Lord in the company of fellow sisters who really understand the pressures of leadership.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, that is so important, so important, and that does sound like a dream job.

Toni Kim: Oh, can I say, the other thing I’m really excited about the other project is I’m working on NAE’s upcoming event called Flourish, which is an interactive conference. Now, you know, so many of the conferences we go to, they’re just filled with lectures and they’re just informational. And you just often feel like you’re drinking from a firehose, and you don’t have time to absorb any of the content. So instead, we want this time to be formational and transformational, because people learn not just by listening to content, but by interacting with people about the content. So there is still gonna be speakers but then after each talk, they’re going to be table discussions led by a mature evangelical leader. Now, as I said, the NAE is quite broad and so we are uniquely poised to provide a setting where we can learn how to have wise and grace filled discussions about difficult topics, like racial injustice and confusion around sexuality. And so my role in this conference is to help make those table discussions gracefield and Christ honoring. An expression of the unity that we have through the Spirit, despite any differences in experiences and opinions.

Twanna Henderson: Now, tell us again when that conference is.

Toni Kim: October 4th to the 5th in Nashville, Tennessee.

Twanna Henderson: Okay, okay. Yeah, that is something that is very much needed, particularly in this time. You know, with your role, how do you think that God is prepared, Toni, to be someone who offers spiritual care to others?

Toni Kim: I think first and foremost, it’s a preparation of the heart, right? We love because God first loved us.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah.

Toni Kim: And as Christians, when we first experience God’s love, I think our hearts are healed. It’s like we’re fuller than we’ve ever been. But as we walk with Christ, God also breaks our heart. And I think in my christian walk, I found my heart breaking mostly for Christians, who were living as if they were spiritual orphans. Now, some people’s hearts, they break for the lost and those who have yet to hear about Jesus. And that’s how God calls them to focus on the evangelism or mission. And of course, I want non Christians to come to know Jesus. But my main burden has always been for Christians to know how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Jesus. So I think about the woman with the issue of blood and she had, you know, she has such great faith to make her way through the crowds and just to touch Jesus cloak, because she thought, well, if I just touch his clothes, I will be healed. And it worked. Right, her 12 years of bleeding stopped immediately. She felt in her body, that she was freed from her suffering. And from her part, she was like she she had faith enough to go to Jesus to get from him what she wanted and then she was content to let the crowd kind of swallow Jesus back up again. But, you know, Jesus wanted so much more he stopped the whole procession. He’s like, “hey, w touched my clothes?” And the disciples were like, you know, this is a ridiculous question, right? But the woman knew that he was referring to her and Mark, in the Gospel of Mark, he records that the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet, and trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. You know, you can just imagine her just trembling with fear. And the whole truth just kind of tumbling out of her, including this worry that Jesus is going to be mad at her or, or even worse, take away that healing, right? But Jesus didn’t stop her to make a public spectacle of her to shame her to punish her. He stopped the crowd so that he could call her daughter, and to bless her. So he says to her, “daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.” (Mark 5:34) And I think just so many Christians, they get so far as to tough Jesus’ clothes, but they want nothing else to do with Jesus. So they’re just, they often, they’re just too afraid that God will be mad at them or demand something of them, they don’t want to do. They live these lives of fear. But they have not yet heard Jesus call them daughter, or son, and they have not yet entered into into all that God has in store for them. And so I think that’s what God has done. God is prepared my heart to just to see his children and to, to want to create spaces for them, to be able to hear him say, daughter, your faith is healed you. To know what it means to be the beloved daughter or son of the most high King.

Twanna Henderson: You know, I think all of us, you know, have those pivotal points in our lives, where that light bulb comes on and we sense that transition of being his daughter or his son. What’s one of those pivotal points for you.

Toni Kim: You know, we talked to him about this. I have a daughter who was born with Down syndrome, and we did not expect that. But after she was born, she was in the NICU for 10 days she was too weak to suck so she had to have tube put down her so that she could get the nourishment she needed. And as I drove the 45 minutes to and from the hospital several times a day, because I had to go and take care of my older son, and then go in and nurse her. What does it mean to be the beloved daughter of someone? You know, what does it mean, to, to love this, this child who was so helpless. And so, as I, as I had this love for this, you know, helpless, helpless daughter of mine, I realized that I too, am a helpless daughter of the most high King and yet he delights in me yet he is, you know, proud to be associated with me as, as my father. And so yeah, and I think those types of, I spent a lot of time in the car, actually singing songs of praise to God with tears, crying, because you know, this, this was not the daughter that I expected, and prayed for I thought. But there was this intimacy of surrender of, but this is the, this was the answer to my prayers, you know. I prayed for this daughter, and this is a daughter you have given to me, and I don’t understand everything but I am willing to trust you, I’m willing, or maybe am forced to in a beautiful way to trust you. So those times were painful, yet intimate and beautiful and life giving.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. And there’s something about making that connection when you, you know, have that real world experience or real life experience, too, that really puts you in a better position to offer the care that others need as well, of course, as a mother with special needs, son, Um, yeah, I understand that. And it, it does give you just a different perspective. What are some of the things that that you’ve learned about God?

Toni Kim: Let me share one generic lesson. And then one specific lesson. The generic lesson is that God is so immense, that we need to always be curious about him. You know, it’s crazy how quickly we get bored with God, like, we think the Bible is boring or inaccessible. We’ve heard all the Bible stories, or read this Bible verse over and over again. And so we basically think we know who God is. But when you stop to think how ludicrous is it to think that we already know all there is to know about an infinite God. So in pre-marital and marital counseling we always tell spouses to actively cultivate curiosity about each other. Because a good marriage, it requires work. And part of that work is remembering that there’s still more about your spouse to discover. It’s so easy to get into a rut to just assume, oh, you already know what your spouse is going to how they’re going to react to XY and Z. And so you don’t even bother bringing it up with him or her. And we get into these ruts with God too, right? Like we basically say, well, yeah, I know who you are. And we just forget to be curious to like, go to the to the Bible expecting to learn more about who he is. And so I want to encourage all of our listeners to pray Ephesians 1:17, which is, “I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.” So the generic lessons is that we should always desire to know God, even better, so that we can love him even more. And the specific lesson is an example of how God has reminded me to look with spiritual eyes. Because when we think about the cross, like when we look at the cross, and we see Jesus on the cross, we think about the pain, suffering, the human humiliation that Jesus endured for us. And that is a part of the cross a very important part of the cross because what he suffered was for our salvation, but that’s the part that we can only see with our earthly eyes. But when you look to see what’s happening in the eternal realm that’s invisible to us. You look in Colossians two, you see that there’s a whole alternate reality that’s going on in the cross. You know, with earthly eyes, we see Jesus in death into defeat. But in Colossians two, it says that, he disarmed, in the cross, he disarmed the public powers and authorities, and he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. So like with earthly eyes, we see, like Jesus, the public spectacle, that he’s being the one that is shamed, but with spiritual eyes, we see that Jesus is triumphing over the powers of the authorities. Like, it’s not Jesus that us defeated, it’s death that is defeated. It is the powers of authorities that are defeated and, and so like asking God for these spiritual eyes to see beyond what our eye see, to his eternal power and glory.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, and I think having spiritual eyes is so important. I mean, that is what we need because we, you know, we’re really living in some pretty challenging times and for some, you know, things seem hopeless at times. What gives you hope in your work in the evangelical community?

Toni Kim: Yes, that’s an important question and you’re right, first, we’ve got to acknowledge that there is a lot to lament about the evangelical experience. So yeah, we need to lament where lamenting is, is needed. But we also do want to have hope. And, you know, we mourn as those who have hope. And so one of the things that gives me hope, in June, my family had the opportunity to spend time in Malawi. And so we went with an organization called Wind Blaue, who works with World Relief, and which is the humanitarian arm of the NAE. And it just, I wish I had an hour to tell you all the things that we saw and saw what God is doing there in the remote villages of Malawi and Malawi is a country of 75%, Christian, 25% Muslim, but the district that we visited was actually predominantly Muslim. And the Christians there are doing what we strive to do in the NAE. They are working across denominations to proclaim the Word in deed and in truth and Muslims, who were previously like antagonistic toward faith, are coming to know Christ, and giving their lives to Christ and having their lives be transformed. These marriages that were broken, families that were broken are being transformed by the love of Jesus and you realize, the good news is still good news. It really does have the power to transform individuals and communities and, and districts. And, and so it just is super encouraging to see that and they’re doing really great work with people with disabilities and it was such an honor to be there as a family to have my daughter with Down syndrome, speak, words of encouragement. To tell the families that you know, God is with you always. And she ended using Zikomo, the Chichewa word for Thank you, which was really fun to see her kind of entering into the culture and thinking in their language a little bit. And, and so yes, God does redeem and transform.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah, and I think it is so amazing just to see his hand, you know, work in situations that seem impossible, but knowing that there’s nothing impossible with Him. If listeners want to know more about the ministry and the work of the NAE, how can they do so?

Toni Kim: Thanks for asking. So they can easiest way is to go to our website, which is NAE.org. And if you click on the resources tab, you’ll find tons of interesting things to listen to. My husband does a monthly podcast called “Today’s Conversation”. His most recent guest was Justin Giboney of the And campaign who has just such wise advice of what the black church can teach us during this time of polarization, and then Flourish. So as I mentioned, I would love to invite your listeners to attend that interactive conference. It will it will be in Nashville, October 4 to 5 and you can find the inforrmation on nae.org.

Twanna Henderson: Okay, and your husband, of course, is the President.

Toni Kim: And your husband is on the executive team.

Twanna Henderson: Yeah. Yeah. So you guys are just doing some phenomenal things in ministry, and we just thank you for the gift that you are. You know, we’re living in very volatile times, spiritually. And many are challenged with how to live out their faith and to stand for biblical truth. As we prepare to close and this has been so good, but can you just take a moment and just pray for all of our listeners to really stand boldly in the midst of difficult spiritual times and that they will really hold true to a biblical worldview?

Toni Kim: That’d be an honor. Let’s pray. Lord Jesus, we thank You that You reign and God we thank you that you understand the mess of life and that you understand that we are facing a time of volatility and polarization and massive failures of your people. Especially your people in leadership. And so it is a hard time to be your follower. But we thank you that your victory has already been secured. And we thank you that greater is you who are in us than he who is in the world. Lord, I pray for the listeners today that you would help them to hear above every voice, your voice saying to you daughter. Saying to them daughter, or son. Help them to know that you are proud to be called their father. And that as their father, you will provide for them. And we pray that you would provide the strength they need to persevere in these times, to lament when they need to lament, but also, to have eyes spiritual eyes to see what you are doing and therefore to have hope, because of what you are doing. And we do pray that you would continue to enable us to know you better, to love you better and to love others as you have loved us. We pray this all in the mighty name of Jesus. Amen.

Twanna Henderson: Amen. Toni, thank you. Thank you so much for being with us. And thank you for the ministry that you and your husband have as influencers of good. You are making a difference. To all of our listeners, I’m Twanna Henderson. I look forward to connecting with you the next time be blessed of the Lord.